Sunday, August 12, 2007


Water into Wine

God says, "I will give all humans the ability to turn water into wine and stones into bread, if you request it?" Do you request it?

Too many of your questions depend on the acceptance of "g-d" as an operative premise.

If a process was discovered that allowed individuals to turn water to wine, stones to bread, lead to gold, sex to love etc...sure...sign me up...but if it's any of the Abrahamic versions of G-d making an offer to do these things should I "request" it, I'd be suspicious and reluctant. Remember, this is the God of scapegoatism, blood redemption, incest to accommodate patriarchal lineage, mandated slavery, martyrs and holy war, not to mention the reported game of craps with the Devil over that good but powerless pawn, Job.

Count me out if it's that double dealing wack of a G-d. No thanks.
From someone's answer to that question, you can infer their beliefs about the existence of God.

If they say no, then obviously they think that the good produced by the act would be outweighed by some greater evil, but they would only be justified in believing that if they believed in some hyper-moral being controlling the laws of nature.

If they say yes, then obviously they think that if there were some hyper-moral being then it would have given people that ability already, and thus no being exists.

One would have to think about the economic and geopolitical affects of such a sweeping move. Other consideration: population explosions....
Some drunken, moronic, alcoholic would probably zap the oceans into vino, one night.

Then where would we be?

Nothing was mentioned about reversing the situation..
alex refers to the idea of g-d as a "hyper moral being". If one takes a brief look at the popular Abrahamic g-d one sees an amoral or an immoral g-d; a g-d truly in man's image: barbarian, territorial, patriarchal, tricky, a gambler with lives, cranky obstinate and contradictory. Accepting of human sacrifice;(Judges 11:30-39), polygamy; (Genesis 16) incest;(Genesis 19:30-38) slavery;(Genesis 9:25-29 often used to give Biblical sanction to American slavery), commanding the stoning of gays and those who choose to find spiritual solace in nature. And the Christian and Jewish g-d is the same g-d as the Islamist g-d whom some Islamists believe offers an extravagant reward to suicide bombers. If this g-d were human we'd call him a psychopath not "hyper-moral". An honest and humorous contemporary expression of the Abrahamic g-d is found in a work of fiction entitled "Not Wanted on the Voyage" by the late Canadian writer, Timothy Findley. An erudite writer and a great read.

I say 'no' again precisely because the g-d of western culture is NOT a hyper moral or ethical being. The g-d of western culture is a rude and dangerous anachronism which is perpetuated by people calling this so-called g-d into existence out of deep fear of the unknown and a desire for predictable stability or stasis which is obviously not how things work. Stasis and dogma are death not life.

This g-d makes and breaks all the rules, can't be trusted for advice or safety especially if special midas-like powers are what your contracting for, Dr. Faustus.

By the way, is this becoming a religious site? Most reasonable queries here seem to be tainted by the interpolation of the g-d concept. It's difficult to blithely answer an interesting question when the concept of g-d so often subverts the query.
Bob the Goat:

Hmmm... Good point. I was, when writing the past post I had in mind the God that (It seems to me) most religious people presently hold, an omnibenevolent omnimax being, which is probably derived more from the New Testament than the Old. I am myself a positive atheist, and see such an outcome (In this case starvation from God's not turning stones into bread) as a probabilistic defeater for theism, as it seems that the Hypothesis of Indifference (that no God exists) better explains the state of the world.

Naturally, if I were to say that the Bible infers the kind of God you stated to a religious believer, he would accuse me of not using the proper hermeneutical method :-)
I'd request it, because while disastrous (eg: oceans turned into wine), the results would surely be hilarious.
I think requesting such powers and receiving them could be dangerous, because then we'd hunger for more and more power. Today, even without the ability to turn stone to bread and wine to water, we want so much power. What would happen if we had too much power?
yeah, i'm gonna pass...I don't drink, and i'm on a low-carb diet.
Only if it came with certain limits like, "One stone a day. One cup a day." That would be perfect.
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